4 answers
Betsy
Student
Yuma, Arizona
1
Question
Asked
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What role does collaboration play in music production?
I am curious about this topic because I want to learn how sound engineers balance artistic vision with technical expertise.
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4 answers
Doran Heck
Music Production
11
Answers
Asheville, North Carolina
Updated
Doran’s Answer
Hi Betsy,
Some artists can be self centered and collaborations help the artists open up to more ideas for song writing. My son is a computer engineer and he plays electric bass and electric guitar. He also plays in a band. We do remote collaborations using Ableton as a DAW (Digital Audio Workstation). So, for him to balance artistic expression and technical knowledge is to have a job as a computer engineer and play music on the side. For me, I need computer skills to write music on a DAW as well as mix and master music. I also play saxophones, flute and keyboard. Good question.
Sincerely,
Doran
Some artists can be self centered and collaborations help the artists open up to more ideas for song writing. My son is a computer engineer and he plays electric bass and electric guitar. He also plays in a band. We do remote collaborations using Ableton as a DAW (Digital Audio Workstation). So, for him to balance artistic expression and technical knowledge is to have a job as a computer engineer and play music on the side. For me, I need computer skills to write music on a DAW as well as mix and master music. I also play saxophones, flute and keyboard. Good question.
Sincerely,
Doran
Mark Marshall
Music composer, musician, music producer, music professor
11
Answers
New York, New York
Updated
Mark’s Answer
Hi Betsy, the role of an engineer has been changing over the years. There are several ways in which an engineer may assist creatively, but it depends on who you're working with.
It used to be that the job of the recording engineer was to make sure the levels didn't overload and to get the sounds the producer asked them to get. Opinions from the engineer were strongly discouraged. They saw the engineer as a tech, not a creative entity.
But then, engineers started getting more creative with the recording technology, and they had knowledge and skills that the producers didn't. It used to be that the producers and the artists were the creative team, and he engineers made it happen. But, slowly this changed, although not as quickly as one might expect. There were and are still sessions that occur where the engineer is expected to say nothing.
So, it depends on the environment you're in. In modern times, the roles of producer and engineer have become increasingly blurred. Many producers are now engineers too. So you see a lot more creative input from engineers now.
But there is a line. I have found in the many sessions I've done (I'm a pro session musician, engineer, producer, arranger, composer) that people are generally cool with engineers suggesting sounds and sonic approaches, which means suggesting trying a particular sound or effect or miking technique.
Where it's not as appreciated or warranted when engineers (unless they are also the producer) suggest more compositional or arrangement ideas. Generally, that is still frowned upon unless you go into the session with the understanding that the engineer will have more input.
As an engineer, I have suggested musicians slightly change the way they play their instruments to get a better recording. I avoid telling them what isn't working in their song, either with harmony or lyrics, etc, unless I'm asked. Even if I know something is wrong. You do have to be careful.
Things are changing more and more as people record themselves in home setups and then rely on engineers to help elevate their work. They tend to be looking for more input...Sometimes.
It's a good idea to understand the traditional roles of each job in this studio and then adjust based on he people you're working with.
Producer: The person who has a full view of the project and how to tie it together. They make sure all the composed and performed parts will fit together. They also help choose the sound world. On top of that, they handle the budget and other tasks such as hiring musicians if needed. Producers often get into the song nd suggest changes if required in lyrics, chords, melody, etc.. Think of them as the song mechanic.
Arranger: An arranger is a person who is brought in to help with arrangements that usually involve instruments that aren't in the "rock" family, such as guitar, bass, drums, and keyboards. The arranger will "arrange" parts for an orchestra or horn section and make charts for them to read. They often have a fair amount of creative influence in the song. Although they don't usually suggest changes to the recording, they write parts to be placed on top of; they can push the vibe of a song in different directions based on their choices. The arranger is usually only present for the songs they're working on and often works on their own.
Recording Engineer: The recording engineer is responsible for setting up microphones, getting the correct levels, troubleshooting technical issues, managing files, hitting the record button, editing takes, and running all the recording gear during the session. The recording engineer brings the sounds to life that the producer or artist is requesting. Modern engineers are known to suggest microphones, miking techniques, instruments in the studio inventory, and effects.
Mixing Engineer: A mixing engineer gets to work when the recording and production are done. Most mixing engineers stay faithful (but elevate) to the rough mixes they get from the producer and engineer. Within that framework, there is some room for creativity. And in extreme cases, a mixing engineer may be bold and remove parts (but never add!) and go for a mixing technique not requested if they are firmly convinced. You do have to be careful about making significant changes, though. It's best to ask if it's cool to try something and mention that you can go back to the original idea. Give them an A/B option. See what they like better.
As mentioned, these roles are blurred in modern times, which can be great depending on how it's dealt with. You have to read the room, meaning you have to be able to notice what the situation allows.
I wear a lot of hats in the music business. But, if I'm hired for a session for one role, I stay in my lane unless asked or if it's clear they are open to more input. This means that sometimes I have to bite my lip when I know things are wrong, which is like a scratch you can't itch. But not everyone is open to suggestion.
As far as who generally has the most creative input into a session aside from the artist, it would be the producer. Many modern producers are also engineers and run their studios. The best thing you can always do is have a conversation with whoever is hiring you (artists, producer) and see what they're open to. Communication is key for all creative relationships (and all relationships in general).
It used to be that the job of the recording engineer was to make sure the levels didn't overload and to get the sounds the producer asked them to get. Opinions from the engineer were strongly discouraged. They saw the engineer as a tech, not a creative entity.
But then, engineers started getting more creative with the recording technology, and they had knowledge and skills that the producers didn't. It used to be that the producers and the artists were the creative team, and he engineers made it happen. But, slowly this changed, although not as quickly as one might expect. There were and are still sessions that occur where the engineer is expected to say nothing.
So, it depends on the environment you're in. In modern times, the roles of producer and engineer have become increasingly blurred. Many producers are now engineers too. So you see a lot more creative input from engineers now.
But there is a line. I have found in the many sessions I've done (I'm a pro session musician, engineer, producer, arranger, composer) that people are generally cool with engineers suggesting sounds and sonic approaches, which means suggesting trying a particular sound or effect or miking technique.
Where it's not as appreciated or warranted when engineers (unless they are also the producer) suggest more compositional or arrangement ideas. Generally, that is still frowned upon unless you go into the session with the understanding that the engineer will have more input.
As an engineer, I have suggested musicians slightly change the way they play their instruments to get a better recording. I avoid telling them what isn't working in their song, either with harmony or lyrics, etc, unless I'm asked. Even if I know something is wrong. You do have to be careful.
Things are changing more and more as people record themselves in home setups and then rely on engineers to help elevate their work. They tend to be looking for more input...Sometimes.
It's a good idea to understand the traditional roles of each job in this studio and then adjust based on he people you're working with.
Producer: The person who has a full view of the project and how to tie it together. They make sure all the composed and performed parts will fit together. They also help choose the sound world. On top of that, they handle the budget and other tasks such as hiring musicians if needed. Producers often get into the song nd suggest changes if required in lyrics, chords, melody, etc.. Think of them as the song mechanic.
Arranger: An arranger is a person who is brought in to help with arrangements that usually involve instruments that aren't in the "rock" family, such as guitar, bass, drums, and keyboards. The arranger will "arrange" parts for an orchestra or horn section and make charts for them to read. They often have a fair amount of creative influence in the song. Although they don't usually suggest changes to the recording, they write parts to be placed on top of; they can push the vibe of a song in different directions based on their choices. The arranger is usually only present for the songs they're working on and often works on their own.
Recording Engineer: The recording engineer is responsible for setting up microphones, getting the correct levels, troubleshooting technical issues, managing files, hitting the record button, editing takes, and running all the recording gear during the session. The recording engineer brings the sounds to life that the producer or artist is requesting. Modern engineers are known to suggest microphones, miking techniques, instruments in the studio inventory, and effects.
Mixing Engineer: A mixing engineer gets to work when the recording and production are done. Most mixing engineers stay faithful (but elevate) to the rough mixes they get from the producer and engineer. Within that framework, there is some room for creativity. And in extreme cases, a mixing engineer may be bold and remove parts (but never add!) and go for a mixing technique not requested if they are firmly convinced. You do have to be careful about making significant changes, though. It's best to ask if it's cool to try something and mention that you can go back to the original idea. Give them an A/B option. See what they like better.
As mentioned, these roles are blurred in modern times, which can be great depending on how it's dealt with. You have to read the room, meaning you have to be able to notice what the situation allows.
I wear a lot of hats in the music business. But, if I'm hired for a session for one role, I stay in my lane unless asked or if it's clear they are open to more input. This means that sometimes I have to bite my lip when I know things are wrong, which is like a scratch you can't itch. But not everyone is open to suggestion.
As far as who generally has the most creative input into a session aside from the artist, it would be the producer. Many modern producers are also engineers and run their studios. The best thing you can always do is have a conversation with whoever is hiring you (artists, producer) and see what they're open to. Communication is key for all creative relationships (and all relationships in general).
Reed Vertelney
Songwriter, record producer
3
Answers
Calabasas, California
Updated
Reed’s Answer
Hi great question. There are many different answers but to make it simple, engineers(who can sometimes be producers/musicians/songwriters) can let you know if what you the artist is possible and can help with the vision you might have and how to achieve your vision. For example, say you want to record a guitar part with a specific sound in mind but don't know how to get it. The engineer who should be proficient in sound can help with the right settings on the amp or software to help get what you are looking for.
Another example is say you want the vocal to sound unusual but you don't know how to get that. You might bring in examples and say " this is what I am looking for" and let them try to get that. There is a great example of John Lennon telling the engineer on the song "Tomorrow Never Knows" on the Revolver album to make his vocal sound like he was singing from a mountain top. I'm not sure that's what it sounds like but it does sound different that just the vocal being recorded flat.
For me, I usually use an engineer when recording drums because they should be able to understand mic placement and eq's.
Another example is I like engineers for a final mix of a song. I try to get the mix close to what I am looking for by myself and then I send the tracks/files to the mix engineer along with my ruff mix and tell them to not reinvent the wheel so to speak but just enhance and make better what I was shooting for on my ruff. That being said sometimes a mix engineer took my tracks and made it so much better than I could imagine. The same goes for making it worse, so you have to be careful and let your thoughts be known.
Ideally an engineer should be there to help and not over suggest or get in the way. It's a balance and a give and take.
Another example is say you want the vocal to sound unusual but you don't know how to get that. You might bring in examples and say " this is what I am looking for" and let them try to get that. There is a great example of John Lennon telling the engineer on the song "Tomorrow Never Knows" on the Revolver album to make his vocal sound like he was singing from a mountain top. I'm not sure that's what it sounds like but it does sound different that just the vocal being recorded flat.
For me, I usually use an engineer when recording drums because they should be able to understand mic placement and eq's.
Another example is I like engineers for a final mix of a song. I try to get the mix close to what I am looking for by myself and then I send the tracks/files to the mix engineer along with my ruff mix and tell them to not reinvent the wheel so to speak but just enhance and make better what I was shooting for on my ruff. That being said sometimes a mix engineer took my tracks and made it so much better than I could imagine. The same goes for making it worse, so you have to be careful and let your thoughts be known.
Ideally an engineer should be there to help and not over suggest or get in the way. It's a balance and a give and take.
I really appreciate your insight, thank you for explaining to me how engineering balances artistic vision and technological expertise.
Betsy
John Graham
Music Producer
80
Answers
Bremerton, Washington
Updated
John’s Answer
Hi Betsy!
I love the answers from both Reed and Mark, and wholeheartedly agree.
Here's a couple of things I'd like to add as an independent producer, musician, and audio engineer.
- It's great to learn new things and do as much as you can, but there are some things that you're better at than others. So if your end goal is a quality product, you need to try and collaborate with those who are better at some of those things you're not good at, or not good at yet. For example, I'm pretty good at keyboards (as I've been playing since I was 5yo), virtual instrument programming, arranging, recording, editing, mixing and mastering. But my vocals and guitars aren't that great. So I engage with other artists from all over the world to collaborate with me on my songs and album projects. For example on my last album there were 49 contributors from 18 countries who played lots of instruments - flugelhorn, electric and acoustic guitar, electric bass, saxophone, mandolin, violin, viola, cello, double bass, Jazz drums, etc. I also hired lead and backup vocalists, graphic artists and photographers for the track and album art, and transcribers to put sheet music together for all the parts and players.
- Regarding the technical collaboration, I also work with artists in studio to not just set up and run the gear - but also to help them get the very best performances and recordings possible. For vocalists, I work together and sometimes independently to comp their takes into great tracks with Lead, Ad Lib, and Harmony performances. This involves ensuring they are comfortable in their environment, have rehearsed the lyrics, and are ready to record. During COVID, I once had a recording session with a vocalist who had recovered from pneumonia, but had taken too many meds in preparation for our session in hopes of making his voice more ready. In the end, he had to sing preliminary takes and exercises for over an hour before his voice came back well enough to record. But in the end he sounded great.
- Once we're happy with the final comp'd takes, I get busy editing and making final tracks for mixing. This applies to instrumentals as well.
- As a producer and also mixing and mastering engineer, I sometimes collaborate with other engineers to solve some of the knottier issues that come up. Also, I'm not too proud to ask other engineers to do a separate mix or master to compare with my own and choose the best one to go to distribution and release. For the song I'm currently working on, I asked another mix engineer to produce wet (mixed) stems and then compared them stem by stem with my own to get the best overall mix ready to Master. This is because in my opinion, it's not about the credit - which I always give - but more about getting the best track possible. Many of us in this business are perfectionists and we never attain perfection - so you have to draw a line when you finally decide a song is as good as it's going to get. The main thing is it's a team effort and everyone deserves respect for their contribution.
- Lastly, as far as how sound engineers specifically balance artistic vision with technical expertise - they might not really take the artistic piece on unless they also have an artist, arranger, or producer role themselves. Lots of sound engineers are also musicians - but when you're doing the technical work, or more to the point - have been "hired" to do a technical job - then you have to tread lightly, as Mark pointed out in his answer. Some creatives are open to suggestions, others prefer to fly solo. Producers, arrangers, songwriters, and musicians tend to have a "direction" they are hearing in their minds of how the experience they're creating should sound. Engineers can help them achieve that, if they're allowed to.
- The best example of this collaboration I can think of is how the British band 10cc recorded the innovative backing track for "I'm Not In Love." This was when they still used tape recording technology (1975) - so it was quite the feat. They basically turned the mixing console into another instrument. Here's a wiki link about how it came to be if you're interested in some musical history: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I%27m_Not_in_Love - and here's a 12-minute video about how they did it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkkJqmwUEA4 . I covered that song on my last album, and I tried to pay homage to that "wall of sound" effect they invented - but it was infinitely easier using 32 digital WAV file recordings of Soprano, Alto, Tenor, and Bass single note vocals to build the chords and overall performance. Here it is: https://music.youtube.com/watch?v=DqmyiNR1Q2U . Suffice it to say, this was definitely a case of needing the audio engineer's technical expertise to achieve the musical vision.
- Betsy, I hope this helps. And if you're asking these types of questions now as you're starting out - it shows you're already thinking ahead. That's going to take you a long way. Good luck on your journey - you're going to do great!
I love the answers from both Reed and Mark, and wholeheartedly agree.
Here's a couple of things I'd like to add as an independent producer, musician, and audio engineer.
- It's great to learn new things and do as much as you can, but there are some things that you're better at than others. So if your end goal is a quality product, you need to try and collaborate with those who are better at some of those things you're not good at, or not good at yet. For example, I'm pretty good at keyboards (as I've been playing since I was 5yo), virtual instrument programming, arranging, recording, editing, mixing and mastering. But my vocals and guitars aren't that great. So I engage with other artists from all over the world to collaborate with me on my songs and album projects. For example on my last album there were 49 contributors from 18 countries who played lots of instruments - flugelhorn, electric and acoustic guitar, electric bass, saxophone, mandolin, violin, viola, cello, double bass, Jazz drums, etc. I also hired lead and backup vocalists, graphic artists and photographers for the track and album art, and transcribers to put sheet music together for all the parts and players.
- Regarding the technical collaboration, I also work with artists in studio to not just set up and run the gear - but also to help them get the very best performances and recordings possible. For vocalists, I work together and sometimes independently to comp their takes into great tracks with Lead, Ad Lib, and Harmony performances. This involves ensuring they are comfortable in their environment, have rehearsed the lyrics, and are ready to record. During COVID, I once had a recording session with a vocalist who had recovered from pneumonia, but had taken too many meds in preparation for our session in hopes of making his voice more ready. In the end, he had to sing preliminary takes and exercises for over an hour before his voice came back well enough to record. But in the end he sounded great.
- Once we're happy with the final comp'd takes, I get busy editing and making final tracks for mixing. This applies to instrumentals as well.
- As a producer and also mixing and mastering engineer, I sometimes collaborate with other engineers to solve some of the knottier issues that come up. Also, I'm not too proud to ask other engineers to do a separate mix or master to compare with my own and choose the best one to go to distribution and release. For the song I'm currently working on, I asked another mix engineer to produce wet (mixed) stems and then compared them stem by stem with my own to get the best overall mix ready to Master. This is because in my opinion, it's not about the credit - which I always give - but more about getting the best track possible. Many of us in this business are perfectionists and we never attain perfection - so you have to draw a line when you finally decide a song is as good as it's going to get. The main thing is it's a team effort and everyone deserves respect for their contribution.
- Lastly, as far as how sound engineers specifically balance artistic vision with technical expertise - they might not really take the artistic piece on unless they also have an artist, arranger, or producer role themselves. Lots of sound engineers are also musicians - but when you're doing the technical work, or more to the point - have been "hired" to do a technical job - then you have to tread lightly, as Mark pointed out in his answer. Some creatives are open to suggestions, others prefer to fly solo. Producers, arrangers, songwriters, and musicians tend to have a "direction" they are hearing in their minds of how the experience they're creating should sound. Engineers can help them achieve that, if they're allowed to.
- The best example of this collaboration I can think of is how the British band 10cc recorded the innovative backing track for "I'm Not In Love." This was when they still used tape recording technology (1975) - so it was quite the feat. They basically turned the mixing console into another instrument. Here's a wiki link about how it came to be if you're interested in some musical history: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I%27m_Not_in_Love - and here's a 12-minute video about how they did it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkkJqmwUEA4 . I covered that song on my last album, and I tried to pay homage to that "wall of sound" effect they invented - but it was infinitely easier using 32 digital WAV file recordings of Soprano, Alto, Tenor, and Bass single note vocals to build the chords and overall performance. Here it is: https://music.youtube.com/watch?v=DqmyiNR1Q2U . Suffice it to say, this was definitely a case of needing the audio engineer's technical expertise to achieve the musical vision.
- Betsy, I hope this helps. And if you're asking these types of questions now as you're starting out - it shows you're already thinking ahead. That's going to take you a long way. Good luck on your journey - you're going to do great!